Turbo Charging

[Greaph]

My 2276 is finally complete, you can see us doing the burn-in here:
(sorry about the image quality, these were taken with a phone)





Motor Specs- 2276, 5.5 I-Beam rods, 40x35 heads, Engle VZ-15 cam (with .478 lift, 279 deg. duration).The compression is 8:1, and the Webers are currently jetted at 60 and 140. When completed, it will have a blow through system with an intercooler and water/alcohol injection. To begin with, while I am working out how I want this to be done, I will be using a stock junkyard turbo with a modest A/R, and 15 lbs boost. Once I have a better idea of what I can put the engine through, I will likely change this for an A/R of .68 or .70.

I don't really have a question, as such, I was just wondering if anyone else has gone down this road before, and what advice/help they might be willing to give me :-).

I have built several trucks and hot rods, but never a bug, and never an air cooled motor before. Still, it's a lot of fun, and the anticipation is killing me !!

*edit for motor specs*

[Texasbuggys]

very nice! Me like that alot!!!

[MURZ]

With 36 vents, you should be at 55 idles, 200 airs, F11's and 145-150 mains. Set the fuel pressure to 3.5 psi and your floats at 10.5MM from the top(as measured with gasket still on carb top.....floats swinging like a door.

I have no experience with turbo VW's but can parrot that after 8psi you better have serious fuel enrichment or expect a fried engine. Most people use dellorto's for blow through as the are sealed better. Webers should be worked by CB performance to machine throttle shafts for o rings.

I can also attest that a 2276 with that cam and heads should be good for high 12's or better with a stock tranny in a buggy. And trust me when you start pushing 80-90mph in one it starts getting hairy.

And I would never run in a cam w/o the tin in place. 20 minutes at 2500 is enough to fry a "loose" engine, a new engine will run even hotter.

Not criticizing, just offering my experiences, and trying to make sure the bottom junk drawer of your tool box doesn't get as cluttered as mine with "field tested parts"

[Greaph]

And I would never run in a cam w/o the tin in place. 20 minutes at 2500 is enough to fry a "loose" engine, a new engine will run even hotter.

Not criticizing, just offering my experiences, and trying to make sure the bottom junk drawer of your tool box doesn't get as cluttered as mine with "field tested parts"

Indeed. I agree. The pics are from when we first hooked everything up, checked cam, oil pressure, etc, WITHOUT running the engine. We then fired it up and ran it a total of 4 times, for less than a minute each, changing jets and setting linkages in between runs.
Then the tin was put on, and cam run in done.

Long story short, you are ABSOLUTELY correct, and I should have specified that before I gave someone that didn't know the wrong idea about how to run-in a cam :-(.

On a side note, once my buggy is complete, it will actually be fairly heavy (as far as buggies go), what with the dual A-Arm front end, full race cage (no show cage), large tires, 4 wheel disks, etc....Not to mention the 3/16 diamond plate and 2x2 .125 wall square tubing chassis it already has :-). So, yes it will still be scary quick, I'm hoping it wont be too loose.

Any input appreciated :-)

[MURZ]

Good deal........

Hey do some research on a dream of mine......

Not too many moons ago I had a Volvo 240 wagon, turbo, intercooled. It had a 2.1 liter engine with mechanical Bosch injection. I rigged it with a hobbs switch on the intake so that 10lbs of boost the hobbs switch would ground the cold start injector and pump some enrichment into the engine. I adjusted the waste gate to 18lbs of boost. It was a fun ride!!!!!! about 225hp!!

So what right??? Nope, listen to me. Volvo 240's are now a dime a dozen and most came with the t03 turbo. Find a complete car cheap (less than 500 bucks) and pirate the entire turbo/fuel management system. CIS injection is simple but real nice. The fuel distributor should be about spot on for your engine and the dizzy even uses the same cap. The dizzy even has a boost retard diaphram.

With some creative engineering and new stainless plumbed lines you car would be a rocket and look like a rocket scientist built it. reliable? hell yeah!!! cheap ...hell yeah!! Turbo Injected 2276.....hang on.

Ok...I pass the baton. Do it!!!!

PS....who do you think came up with the volvo 240 res on BUG M/C idea?? Mr. Turbo Brick himself ME!!



I am a dreamer filled with passion for the car hobby....life has robbed me of time to persue the dreams, but I contiunally build cars in my head every day and stash cash in altoid tins...for the one day, one day I will be able to express myself with the minty fresh cash and build a dream.

[Greaph]

I am a dreamer filled with passion for the car hobby....life has robbed me of time to persue the dreams, but I contiunally build cars in my head every day and stash cash in altoid tins...for the one day, one day I will be able to express myself with the minty fresh cash and build a dream.

ROFLMAO............"Minty fresh cash" indeed, I wish I had the ability to express myself in cars the way you apparently can with words

As far as a Volvo....It's funny that you should mention the one you worked on, as I have long been a Volvo fan. I just sold a 760 turbo (with intercooler), that I was going to rob (as you suggested), but I couldn't bring myself to do it :-(. I will rob a junkyard one instead. I was actually going to look for a Merkur (remember those?), they have the same turbo, with a slightly easier to mount intercooler (to a cage, anyway) and a nice E2000 pump and filter mounted to an attractive, yet functional, mount.

As far as the T03 on the volvo (and Merkur), the only drawback is the A/R is fairly conservative (to give you that seat of the pants feeling when you hit the gas, and avoid a long spool-up), but as I OP'ed, this is desirable for me atm, until I learn more about my personal engine and what I can get away with it

Using the entire fuel delivery and ignition from a Volvo isn't something I had considered, tbh....I shudder to think of the work necessary to just program the ECU and fuel map (I don't have access to a dyno, unless I drive 1.5 hours). The idea is intriguing, and deserves further research, definately a project for the winter. However, I think I will go on as I plan, and then build a second motor, or wait until next winter to play with it ( I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to drive my toy )

[David O']

I think that you are going to have more than enough power to make the car scream....if you get too much, you will do nothing but spin the tires, and the car will go nowhere. It is a matter of how much power you can get to the ground, not how much you can make....balence is the ky to performance.

[MURZ]

No fuel maps....it is mechanical injection with O2 sensor to enrich under load only. CIS injection uses a trap door type sytem to measure air flow. The 740 was electronic. 240 used a simple system.

[Greaph]

I think that you are going to have more than enough power to make the car scream....if you get too much, you will do nothing but spin the tires, and the car will go nowhere. It is a matter of how much power you can get to the ground, not how much you can make....balence is the ky to performance.

I'm assuming this is about my plan to change turbos for a more aggressive A/R ratio. Simply put, the A/R isn't just about about power, it is more about where the power is made (or, made available). A low A/R gives you a lot of low end grunt, but starts to peter out mid-range, and is done before you get to 5000 rpm (engine). This can be counteracted by overboosting, but then you risk over-revving the turbo....and a grenaded turbo isn't pretty. So the A/R determines where the power is made :-)

As for going to 15 psi, I will eventually go to 20 (hence the need for intercooler (needed just about any time you go past 7psi boost) and water/alcohol injection (to control detonation)). This isn't for street power. My buggy will be on the street about 70% of the time it is driven, but it will also be in the sand, where the more power you have to spin the paddles, the better .

If you were aware of the preceding, please ignore my lecture

No fuel maps....it is mechanical injection with O2 sensor to enrich under load only. CIS injection uses a trap door type sytem to measure air flow. The 740 was electronic. 240 used a simple system.

You know...I saw that when you posted it...but it didn't register. That is intriguing. Are we talking about the 74-79 Volvo 240 engines? Or did Volvo manufacture them for a longer period? I foresee a lot of junkyards in my future..............

*edit* I wonder how much Volvo would charge me for new parts, and just source it all (fuel system and distributor) from Volvo.......

[MURZ]

My 240 was a 85, but I think the turbos were made from 83 or so to 85.

Google Bosch CIS for more info. The older rabbits used the same system.

[MURZ]

http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/CIS.html

[Greaph]

so far the biggest problem I can see is fabbing the custom cross-over for the intake with the Bosch fuel distributor sensor plate....it would have to go center of the engine, almost directly behind the turbo...I can have the turbo stand a few inches further off from the engine to make room.

I will have to get to some junkyards to take a closer look, maybe I can use the original intake manifold as a base. I vaguely recall the K-jet and K-lambda systems from my old Volvos, but not in enough detail.

~~~Thanks MURZ..........giving me yet another puzzle, just when I thought I had it all planned out

[MURZ]

Use a Progressive carb Manifold with a ford throttle body(escort or similar), and pipe the turbo into that. The intake for the turbo would come from the Fuel distributor/ airfilter box which could be mounted out of site. Fab the braided high pressure fuel lines from that. The O2 Sensor, frequency valve, cold start injector are really fine tuning aids and really would not be needed to run.

Or.........if you really want neat looking, uses KADRON throttle plates only and fab the tubes to that.......

Or.....for total slickness...cut the rear seat area on the buggy out and reverse it creating a huge box to hide everything. Pipe EVERYTHING behind the engine including turbo...SLEEPER...

Man...I love to spend other peoples money

[Greaph]

The O2 Sensor, frequency valve, cold start injector are really fine tuning aids and really would not be needed to run.

LOL! So the ability to cold start, enrichen under full boost and such are luxuries?

Man...I love to spend other peoples money

So I see I wish I could figure out how to spend other peoples' money on MY ride!!

[Greaph]

On a side note....I dared to ask someone that I USED to respect about this very issue. He worked on my old Volvos and did a nice job. He also is a noted VW mech in San Antonio.....And was %$# near flamed for my question..which he never even came close to approaching...just goes to show, you never really know a person at all.

http://www.vosaclub.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7460


There is the link to the thread.

[MURZ]

I would not worry about the opinion of one man. The internet is full of helpful people willing to assist those who brave to go where no man has gone before.

The CIS system is very simple. Think of the fuel distributor as a one handle shower valve. The more you twist it, the more it allows water to flow. The distributor just has a plate that pushes the handle on the valve is all. the more you open the throttle the more air rushes past the plate and the more the fuel flows. The frequency valve controls pressure based on samba or O2 readings.

As for his comments about performance, your car in current configuration will be capable of sub 5 second 0-60 and low 13's...high 12's in the qtr. Heavy or not.....it will fly with that combo.

My old buggy, AKA "tater" or "the Red Baron" has a 2276 with 120 cam and G03 40x35 heads ....so a little less hp than your combo and would fly. Even with 3.88 gears the joker would catch rubber in all gears.

I would go NA first and build the turbo later...draw through with a 44 DCOE. But if you decide to go Volvo i will help with everything I know about turbo bricks.......

MURZ(the IDEAR man)

[Greaph]

I appreciate it. I really like the idea of an old school (until the the turbo, at least) FG buggy (mine is a '66) with old school mechanical injection.....I am tempted to forgo the turbo and mount velocity stacks

The thing that hacked me off was this: IMHO, just about anyone performance modding a VW engine is already going against the grain....so, why, why, why, in a forum full of ppl that enjoy being rebels (so to speak) are there thought nazi's that refuse to entertain someone's different idea?

Effing aggravating....and I thought I was conservative

As far as going NA...that is a given...I've been working on this ride for 2 years without driving it once......now that the engine is back, it WILL be driven a bit . While I am enjoying it, I will source parts and research the next steps.

I think it is safe to say, however, that the Webers are going to come off, and the fuel injection (be it Lambdasond or EFI of some sort) is going in :-)

P.S.~~ I have several friends, family and others living in Louisiana. I work there often (although generally not close to the Big Easy). I will let you know the next time I am there....may even have my Doom Buggy

[Greaph]

When I go on days off, I will start looking for parts. The fuel injectors, I think, had better be new units from bosch, or even the Mercedes "Bronze Upgrade" units (to flow more fuel). I am excited about this ...

I will post progress/pics here in the future~~stay tuned