Texas Manx Club

by **KIM-P** » 10 Thu Jul, 2008 8:09 pm

I have bought Baja bumpers for my manx style buggy. and after trial fitting the front I realize the anti sway bar is in the way (above the bottom tubes) meaning when I hit a bump the sway bar will hit the tubes. I'm planning on lowering the buggy soon but the sway bar would still be in the way. NOW MY QUESTION how safe is it to drive this type of car without a front sway bar? Or is it feasable to bend or modify the sway bar in some way to keep the stability of the sway bar in tact?

by **Vee Dub Nut** » 10 Thu Jul, 2008 8:27 pm

You can run without the sway bar just fine.. sway bars do effect the amount of body roll you get, but its ok to drive with out one.

On my '67 sedan.. I have a 4" narrowed beam that has no shocks or swaybar and it drives fine (actually, much better than it did with the brazillian adjustable beam, kyb gas shocks, and stock sway bar). Realize, I know the car is 40 years old and I drive it that way. That being said it works fine.

You will have a hard time modifying the sway bar. Its made of spring steel which you can't really do anything with. Without seeing a pic, the only real option I can think of is trying to adjust it position relative to the trailing arms. You may be able to get yourself some more room that way..

by **Aquabuggy** » 10 Thu Jul, 2008 8:29 pm

Toss it! You don't need it. Ive never run a sway bar on a buggy no problems at all.

by **KIM-P** » 10 Thu Jul, 2008 9:25 pm

OK,thanks. My shocks are shot anyway, and I love to take turns in a hurry. I'll remove the sway bar and experiment with the shocks until I find a happy medium. THANKS AGAIN

by **Texasbuggys** » 10 Thu Jul, 2008 9:58 pm

Hey Adam, got a pic of the beam in your 67? 4" and no shock tower, does it bounce or bottom out? Also tires and wheel sizes front and rear?

by **Vee Dub Nut** » 10 Thu Jul, 2008 10:21 pm

I'm running this beam...

can be bought from here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/ ... ?id=390833

I actually bought a beam with shock towers, but don't have shocks installed. If I could go back, I would buy a beam w/o towers. You don't need them.. When you narrow up the beam, you shorten the torsion leaves thus increasing the stiffness of them.

I don't have any issues with excessive bounce. I do have a little bump steer, but I don't have the tie rods flipped. Before I had the brazillian beam with adjusters and kyb gas shocks. I had absolutely NO suspension travel and it was a terrible ride. Now I have the 4" beam with CB 2.5" spindles and the ride is night and day.. The wheels are the standard 15x5.5 five spoke Empi knock off's and I'm running 145's on the front. I have no major clearance problems.. I do slightly rub the back of the headlight buckets when doing sharp turns in a parking lot. On the back I have some 205/60/15's with the rear lowered one spline

Here are a few pics of the car for reference (or showing off.. ;-)

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by **ckolek** » 11 Fri Jul, 2008 8:00 am

hey Kim, hows that buggy coming along? any pics yet?

by **carlos del carpio** » 11 Fri Jul, 2008 8:08 am

Do you mean your STOCK anti-sway bar is hitting? There are applications for a lower or raised suspension setup.

Here's a pic of the anti-sway bar for lowered apps:

Some people use shocks to control suspension height and support. Shocks are simply there to convert kinetic energy to thermal energy. The energy, of course, is the motion of the suspension. Removing this component can not only cause suspension failure on one or more components, it can be rather dangerous.

When building a buggy and using stock suspension components, consider this: The stock components are meant for a type 1 setup with a certain range of vehicle size and width, fuel weight, passenger weight, vehicle weight, suspension travel, etc. Reduce/add a factor, (for instance the steel body for a fiberglass one), and you'll see a change.

by **KIM-P** » 11 Fri Jul, 2008 8:54 am

YES IT IS THE STOCK SWAY BAR AND STOCK 67 FRONT BALL JOINT BEAM THAT I RECENTLY REBUILT

by **David O'** » 11 Fri Jul, 2008 10:50 am

You are right Carlos, shocks keep the front end from developing harmonic vibrations, and to keep the front wheels on the ground.
Note to Kim-P, the biggest problem today is the fact that people put gas shocks on the light cars and wonder why they hit so hard over bumps, it is because the engineering of these cars was not meant to have gas shocks.
Also, a shock does not support weight of the car.....it absorbs the movement of the suspension and helps to control the movement of the car at higher speeds.
The sway bar MIGHT not be needed on the front end of a dune buggy, but I would'nt want to drive a beetle that way, due to the high roll center of the chassis design. In 1968, Volkswagen put a Z bar at the back of the cars to control the roll of the vehicle even more.

by **Vee Dub Nut** » 11 Fri Jul, 2008 11:30 am

I believe he asked if it was safe to run the vehicle without the sway bar.. and the answer is IMO, yes....

The car WILL handle differently, as with ANY change to the suspension, but it will not make the car dangerous to drive. Off roaders have been pulling sway bars for years to allow both sides of the front suspension to operate independently.

Remember here, as long as you don't expect a 40 year old VW chassis thats been cut in half and re-welded, and the steel body replaced with a fiberglass shell to handle like a modern car, and drive accordingly.. you'll be ok.

Now shocks are a different story.. everyone has their own opinion on those. That wasn't what he was asking, I just brought it up in explanation on my setup. For me, I don't have any issues. Remember, I don't use my car as a daily either. But as usual the topic starts a debate...

Shocks ONLY dampen the suspension movement. The car is supported ONLY by the torsion leaves. Will you have more "bounce" in the suspension with out shocks? Yes.. thats the effect from removing the dampers. Is it dangerous.. we'll everyone has their opinions. Keep in mind though.. the VW suspension was set up and optimized for a 1700lb full sedan weight. Even if you keep all of the factory VW suspension on your buggy, its not properly set up for buggies weight and will have its own negative handling effects or characteristics.

David O' wrote:The sway bar MIGHT not be needed on the front end of a dune buggy, but I would'nt want to drive a beetle that way, due to the high roll center of the chassis design. In 1968, Volkswagen put a Z bar at the back of the cars to control the roll of the vehicle even more.

Sorry, I have to nit pick, but this is not correct.. the Z bar was added in '67 as well as all the rest of the produced swing axle cars from that point as an overload spring. VW did this to combat the horrible handing of the stock swing axle.. VW in '67 softened the spring rate in the rear torsion housings, and raised the front suspension to help the swing axle handling (this is why all the '67 are real nose high stock). Since they softened the rear torsion housing, they also added the overload spring (z-bar) to compensate for heavy loads with the softer torsion bars.

If were arguing safety here.. lets be honest. The rear VW swing axle in its stock form is probably about the worst rear suspension design ever conceived. I won't go into all the reasons.. you can add a camber compensator and that will help, but its still not on par with ANY modern vehicle.

Moral of the story.. remember what your driving and drive accordingly..

PS: I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful so please don't take my post personal

(edited for gender clarification :oops:

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by **Bill K** » 11 Fri Jul, 2008 2:30 pm

I've been running my buggy without a sway bar and front shocks , and it drives and rides great. But remember, I'm not an off roader, I'm a street cruiser.

by **CoryN** » 11 Fri Jul, 2008 3:59 pm

My buggy is sitting in the garage with both shocks and a sway bar. So far its been handling just fine :lol:

And so far it has been purely offroad ;-)

by **Texasbuggys** » 11 Fri Jul, 2008 7:49 pm

Hey Carlos, that white looks clean man! Real nice!

by **Texasbuggys** » 11 Fri Jul, 2008 7:52 pm

Hey Adam, what about rear tires? It looks good. I think I am going to go a little less on the front like a 2" narrow.
Sabre said to tell your wife hello from us folks down south of ya! Oh and Sabre is getting her way, one of the long bodies coming in is hers!

by **Vee Dub Nut** » 11 Fri Jul, 2008 8:30 pm

Hahaha.. I figured Sabre might be behind the new long bodies :lol:

Oh, and Micah returns the hello

Anyways.. sorry I forgot to mention the back.. 205/60/15's on 15x5.5 wheels lowered one outer spline.

You running drums or disk on the front of yours? Some spindles and disk kits push your front track out enough to make a 2" beam look stock. Oh, and I forgot to mention that I have 3/8" spacers on the front to give my lower ball joints clearance with my wheels.