About that engine class!

[David O']

First of all, this can be a lot of fun. However, I had not intended to build one engine. I thought that the best deal for the people who show up would be that they could take THEIR engine (longblock) home with them when they leave.
The first item would be how many people want to attend....knowing that they will getting the parts, doing all of the work, and scrubbing all of the parts AHEAD of time?
I said that it would be fine for anyone to attend....as long as they bought their parts from me. That is not to be ugly or rude, but to be able to control the QUALITY of the parts used. The parts put into an engine determine how long it will run and how well it will run. There is no exception to that rule. If junk goes in....junk comes out.
That said, I need to know who is interested, and how the middle of October sounds? It won't be HOT then, and there won't be heat strokes going on either.
Everyone who plans on coming, needs to send me an e-mail and tell me the type on engine that they want.
The next hurdle would be getting the blocks to me....CLEAN.....so I could check them for cracks, spread main bearing saddles, and wheather or not they need machine work. (I charge you for machine work).
When I get the information that you send, I will be able to send back the list of parts and the prices. All parts and information of YOUR engine will be here and waiting on you to show up!
Now the ball is in your courts, so to speak!
Remember...you will be building and taking your engine home!
I also plan on giving out an exam to see how much you guys learned.

[carlos del carpio]

hm..is there a rough estimate on how much an engine would cost if we attend with ZERO salvaged parts, all new parts? I have a short block, and I may send that ahead of time (I'll pay for your labor, of course) for you to view and state which parts are salvageable, etc...

also, if dealing new, do you know a rough estimate of price per CC?

for instance, a 1600 will cost $x.xx, and a 1776 (or 1775) will cost $x.xx, etc. etc....

thanks man!

[David O']

The general pricing is:
1. pistons and cylinders 1600cc......$94.44
2. rods (rebuilt and balanced)........$54.95
3. stock reground crankshaft..........$30.00
4. main bearings (sized to fit
your block and crank)...............$28.95
5. rod bearings (to fit your crank)....$6.70
6. cam bearings (stock)..................$6.77
8. 8 push rod tubes........................$10.80
9. oil pump (new)...........................$29.12
10. 8 lifters ...................................$12.00
11. camshaft (any).........................$65.53
12. cam gear (new)........................$22.33
12. cam gear bolts.........................$1.35
13. gasket set with rear seal...........$9.68

Your block must be usable, and if it needs to be align bored, that is $65.00. (that is what it cost me)
If your block needs to have inserts that is $47.00 (includes the inserts)
If you with to go 1776cc the machine work is $40.00 for the block and
$30.00 for the heads.
The pistons and cylinders for 1776, 1835, or 1914 are $175.00.
If anyone wants to have new heads, they are 249.00 a pair.
To do the machine work and replace all of the guides and the exhaust valves (complete valve job) that is $125.00
If you add all of this up......it isn't a lot of money for what you will be getting......and it will run right.
Each engine is different, and that is why there are so many variables. If you have other questions, please let me know.

Your rocker arms and push rods need to be usable, and you should also have the valve covers, sump plate and screen, distributor drive, crankshaft gear set, and the flywheel. Crankshafts need to be able to be used as a core.

Not to be ugly, but crankshafts that have been setting in dirt and mud, or have rods that have literally burned the crankshaft untill it is blue, is not a core unit. The same goes for the blocks.

I hope this helps!

[Frontloader]

Oh, heck no, I ain't taking no test!

David. I am afraid I am out at this time. When this was proposed, early next year was mentioned. That is when I planned on upgrading my engine. Of course, if it doesn't run in the next couple of weeks, I may be changing my mind.

The method you proposed and pricing looks good. However, I am not able to do it this soon. Hopefully others will be coming and taking pics.

Thanks for putting this on for those who can benefit from it.

Ed

[blackthree4me]

im out too
was hopping for feb / march 07

[David O']

Ok, let's take a vote......when do you guys think would be the best time? Post them up!

[Aquabuggy]

A little more time would help me, but David whatever you pick, I'll do my best to be there. I'm looking forward to the opportunity to learn from a pro!

[Faron]

The middle of October is a little soon for me as well. It has been pretty slow, and I dont know that I can come up with the extra cash that soon. Any way to do this a little later in the year?

Just my 2 cents!

[David O']

I'm open to anything except 20 degree weather and the holidays. I'm just trying to get a feel of when........Say first week of March? Come on, you guys.....say something.....I'm not hard to deal with......LOL

[Texasbuggys]

Hey David, I have a possible suggestion, how bout this:
Let everyone work with you on what they want to build, size engine, come up with parts list and machine work needed and cost and the cost will be subject price changes as we both know they are on the rise right now. Everyone can buy a little or alot as they have time and spare cash and if you have space you can hang on to the parts and box by name or send back to the customer and they can keep them until at least four folks have enough to build and then setup the class to make it worth your time.
Some guys may already have some good parts from an old engine they want to re-use so each will be a little different build and cost.

How does that sound guys? Just a suggestion to learn from Davids years of knowledge and expert engine building skills and at the same time enjoy some good old guy time!

[Texasbuggys]

Hey David, how young ya theach them? I got an 11 year old that is intrested in building one from the ground up. I was surprised he was reading this but said he wants to do it all by himself if you can show him.

[Texasbuggys]

Here is a picture of him playing around with the Plasma! He calls it "Fusion Cutting" I had to tell him, that it is much easier on the eyes with cutting glasses on. He loves to cut things out with it.

[David O']

Learning something has always been an attitude, not an age. I know people who are over fourty and you couldn't teach them anything with even a brick!
I'll go for your suggestion, and it was the direction I thought would be good. Every parts list and every engine is different.....so I agree completely to your idea. I have the room and I had already decided that a parts "bin" needed to be made for each person.
This class is not just about how to build an engine, but also the priciples of how they work, what the thermal dynamics of engines are, the debunking of "neandrothal engineering". And the how and why of what works and what doesn't. Believe me, I've heard and seen stuff out there from "those in the know" that make me want to recomend that they get out of the gene pool, so they can't breed more of the stupid like themselves.
I only add that....bad engines are always built from don't know or don't care, or stupid situations. Then when it doesn't work......it's the cars fault, they are so smart and so perfect.....that the only reason it didn't work was..............?LOL!
Be warned however.......the good ol boy's ways of making things work because it is the only way that they know to do it, will not pass the test so to speak.
In short......only sound and logical explainations will be taught, and the physics, thermal dynamics, and co-eficent of expantions will be used.
I didn't write the book on VW's or anything else, but I will be able to show the hows and whys of what is discussed!

[blackthree4me]

hey Bobby
I am pretty sure Hayden will be at the class with me.
he is 11 as well
might be good for them to team up together
theres will turn out better than ours Im sure LOL
David thanks for the info on parts
we will get on it and let you know when we are ready to start building

Blackthree4me

[Texasbuggys]

Thanks David for not only you supe kind offer but also the willingness to teach. David and we will decide what we want to build and contact you for some advice and parts direction and start sending ya$$$.


Steve O, that is awesome and yes you are right on, theirs will be better than ours, ya can count on it.

[Faron]

March sounds great to me! That way I will be able to save up all the money! Ohh and my new TURBO MINI will be in! YEA!!! Maybe I will get lucky!!! Perhaps I will be able to drive the new MINI up, and bring home the buggy motor in the back of my new car. Middle/late March is my vote!!!

[carlos del carpio]

March is good for me too! I gotta give more table dances to get the extra money for the engine components hahahahah!

Bobby, great that the son is starting with cutting, but I nearly spit my soda on my monitor.. PLEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASE give him eye protection! I'm not preaching, but I've been there and the 'tough guy' in my didn't want to see the eye doc.. I was one of those lucky few that after he pulled the splinter out of my eye, one that I couldn't even see, he had to drill out the rust! yikes! a 20 dollar pair of goggles would have saved that pain...

SO, when does everyone wanna go???

[richard king]

bobby if i am homeand thomas want to build his motor maybe we can go up there together i hope i am home by march

[Texasbuggys]

Hey shoot me an e-mail at Texasbuggys@cox-internet.com I sent you some but you must not be getting them and I wanted to ask you something. Yes that is a great idea on the engine build.

[Aquabuggy]

David O.
Any pointers on what to look for in a used case. I've come across 2, both are shortblocks [no pistons, cylinders or heads] both are as41 dual relief one has AK____ the other AH____ stamped under the generator stand. I know about checking for end play, but what else should I be looking for?

Thanks

[David O']

You need to look at the block to see if it is spread, and or worn beyond use. Either one requires the block to be taken apart. If you get them apart, call me and I will be able to tell you if they are good or not......the obvious items. If someone is trying to sell them to you and they will not allow you to take the block apart, they are not worth anything.
Believe me, I've bought blocks and when I took them apart, all of them went into the trash, and the guy who sold them to me left the state on my money and was gone.
I say this to keep this kind of stuff from happening to others.
One thing that will make a block useless in a hurry, is to look on the bottom and the top and see if they have been outside or setting in the dirt. Mag blocks will get a grey rust type stuff started in them and it will not go away. Also, take the sump plate off and see if the bottom is eaten away from this type of rust. If so, and the hole where the sump screen goes is real rough or pitted......don't buy it!
My rule of thumb is....if I don't take it apart, I don't want it. If I do and it is good, then I will pay a fair price!
Also, look at the top of the block and see if they look like there is a bulge in the top, if so.....it's junk.
If the block is taken apart and you see damage from where it let a rod go loose of the crankshaft,........it is junk!
More than checking for end play you are wanting to see the size of the main bearing holes, and the amount of thrust cutting that has been done!

[carlos del carpio]

wow, too bad this thread didn't happen a few weeks ago.. I sold cases on ebay, both as-21's and as 41's....

[Frontloader]

David O or anyone else.

Need some info on a shortblock case. Case is said to have been lined bored, new crank and bearings and new rod bearings plus new oil pump.

Engine number reported as 9658799.

I have asked for any verification available from the builder for the new parts and work done on the case. What else can I check to verify that these parts are new and good as well as if standard or what?

It will take an hour drive or so to check out the block. I want to make my trip worthwhile if possible so I want as much info as possible to be sure the parts are new without splitting the case which I doubt they will do.

What would be a fair price for the case with unknown parts?

What would be a fair price if the parts mentioned are good.

I have been keeping up with this thread in case I can make the engine build. Or maybe I should just rebuild the engine I have - number HO 163344. I have had this engine since '70 and know it hasn't been abused and is low milage from my use. About 12,000 mile and hasn't been run since the mid '80s.

Would a rebuild on the old engine be the best way to go? Get a good 1600 out of with a few extra HP if possible.

Good advice wanted. Humorous advice laughed at.

[David O']

Keep the block that you have.....it is an H block and can be built to what ever you want....why spend money that you don't need to spend?

[Frontloader]

David

Thanks for the reply.

Not sure why I thought I needed two engines when I can only use one at a time.

Ed

[blackthree4me]

revisiting this thread bump it back to the top
wet cold weather pushed me from the wife and kids in the house
out to the garage himm what to do
I know this will keep my buisy for awhile
time to tear into the rebuilder block to see what I am going to get myself into now
as ususal it is no easy solution
I got this block from the same guy that I got the ghia from he told me it was a great rebuilder what a joke
1972 AK type block 1600 CC duel port I figured good starting point


got all the cylinder tins and misc stuff pulled from the main meat

got the cylinder heads off not to bad no major problems so far
look to be pretty good shape so far so good

after pulling the jugs the tell tale signs started to apear
brazilian pistons means there has been someone else in here recently
#3 piston was way sloppy with about 1/4" slop UMM thats not god right

curiosity killed the cat so I dug into the case head first
for those that havent seen in here its not suposed to look like this LOL
but heer it is anyway

notice sludge on the bottom as well as lots of the light rust starting to form this ones been sitting awhile

once I got the rods off I begain to see the real damage

the # 1 and 3 were toast

mains dident look to bad but eye ball cant tell time for the mikes

I used mikes for the initial exams then went back with the calipers for the picks the standard was 2.162
mine were 2.135


that tells me my crank has been under sized at leat twice the norm is to undercut it by .010" for clean up this one is scrap at 2.115" on the #3 bearing

nominal ID of a decent rod

now Im ready for clean up and start checking case IDs
and decide what size to go from heer
im started on my class project how bout yall
David you wana chime in and let us know what we should be looking for inside the case bearing areas
once I get it cleand up I will post more picks
hope you guys like the picks and had as mutch fun as I did but less grease
(pu you smell like greasy car parts)
this is all new to me as well
blackthree4me

[David O']

You are looking at an engine that lost a rod bearing due to wear in the bearings. That is normal for the long lived engines, when care is not taken.
The block looks to be usuable.....it doesn't look to have been line bored too much. The next thing to do is look for obvious cracks in the block and see if the case is spread.
To check for a spread case, clean it up at the part lines, and the saddles, and then put it back together, (empty) and shine a flashlight down the bores while looking from the other end. If you can see light at the partlines of the bore, the case is spread. This is done with the six main stud nuts torqued to the right specs. I use 30 ft/lbs.
Don't worry about the crankshaft, or the rods...if you are smart you replace those anyway.
The heads are single ports, and unless you are going to build one of those, you can change out the four top middle studs, and turn it into a dual port engine. More on the block later, when you got it clean.

[Aquabuggy]

The heads are single ports, and unless you are going to build one of those, you can change out the four top middle studs, and turn it into a dual port engine. More on the block later, when you got it clean.

Looks like dual port heads
I need to get started on mine March is just around the corner

[David O']

You are right.............I'm more tired than I thought!

[Faron]

WOW I need to get going on the motor I have pretty quick. You guys are right, March is just around the corner!

[blackthree4me]

a little more home work
sugested reading and prep
http://www.aircooledtech.com/vw_case/
http://www.aircooledtech.com/parts_list/
mine checks out so far
questions on the number stamped into the back bone next to the oil cooler mount ?
it says 622.k that cant be right
what gives?
more picks after clean up
thanks to nate

[David O']

If you want the engine to last a long time....don't put used cranks or polished used cranks in the motors.....same goes for the rods! Nate is wrong about that...the wear tolerance is 1.5 thousandths of an inch, it will show up in the oil pressures in the engines, especially when the hot summers arrive. (As in his list of might needs)
If you don't have a bore guage to read the rod bores, how do you even know that the bore is round?
Rules to remember...
1. compression is NOT your friend
2. Most of the free web advice (on forums) is worth about what you paid for it. Not implying Nate here.
3. Cutting corners for the sake of "cheap" always costs in the long run.
4. Yea an engine will run when built...but will it be running 200,000 miles from now? (attention to tolarence makes the difference)
5. small carburetor will not run right on big engine and vice versa
6. Big cams and high lifts will not be compatible with small carbs, valves, etc.
7. IT IS THE BALANCE OF ALL OF THE COMPONENTS IN THE ENGINE THAT DETERMINS HOW WELL THE ENGINE RUNS, HOW LONG IT LASTS, AND WHAT KIND OF POWER AND MPG YOU GET.
8. I'm going to make a new post about the engine class, because I'm not saying anything is wrong with David for looking into the engine he wants to build, or how he is doing his homework....I mean that, I applaud his efforts. But there is one thing I won't do....and the new post will be about that.